In this episode, Alexis talks with MHA/JD candidates Danny Bush and Sam Cropper. They discuss the dynamic field of health law and policy, the intersection between health law and public health, and how lawyers can serve as patient advocates.

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Alexis Clark:

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to From the Front Row, brought to you by the University of Iowa College of Public Health. My name is Alexis Clark, and if this is your first time with us, welcome. We’re a student-run podcast that talks about major issues in public health and how they are relevant to anyone, both in and out of the field of public health. Today, we will be chatting with Mr. Danny Bush and Mr. Sam Cropper. These two gentlemen are dual degree candidates in the Master of Health Administration program here in the College of Public Health, as well as the JD program in Iowa’s College of Law. Welcome to the show, Danny and Sam.

Sam Cropper:

Great to be here.

Alexis Clark:

Before we dive into a conversation of about health law, would each of you give us a brief introduction to yourself and how you decided a career blending the healthcare industry and law was the right path for you?

Sam Cropper:

I think Danny should go first.

Danny Bush:

So for me, I didn’t start college until I was 22, and it comes from a background of my parents not really finishing college and having not really many relatives finish college either. So when I started college, I knew I wanted to go absolutely as far as my body and mind could take me. And being in my last semester, I’ll just affirmatively state right now, I have gone as far as my body and mind can take me. And so I started undergrad as a premed, or at least I was fulfilling the prerequisites taking biology and chemistry and alchemy and all that. But quickly realized that I faint at the sight of blood, and so I thought that being a doctor might not be the most wise career choice. I didn’t want to faint during surgeries and all that. So I decided to do something else and I definitely went through the motions of changing my major five or six times and not knowing exactly what I wanted to do, but I did always have in the back of my mind that I wanted to stick in some way in the healthcare industry.

Danny Bush:

So as I was looking at graduate schools, I knew I wanted to go to grad school. I was looking at law schools and also at master of health administration programs, as well as at a few other allied health professional programs. And ultimately decided to go to law school, knowing that I would probably also complete a master of health administration. I figured why not try to have my hands in both arenas and gain as broad of an education as possible. And I don’t regret it at all, so it’s been great. It’s been really a unique and wonderful experience to have both the legal education and also the education of a healthcare executive. And I don’t regret anything. It’s been a fun and wild ride.

Alexis Clark:

Sam, what about you? How do you get to where you are now?

Sam Cropper:

So I guess by way of brief introduction, I’ll just say that I’m not originally from Iowa, but I consider Iowa my home. Sometimes when I drive down I-80, I see those bumper stickers that say Iowa native, or sometimes they say Iowa captive. So I don’t know which one I am, if I’m a native or a captive, but Iowa is where I’m at. I did my undergrad at the University of Utah, and I did it in political science. And so law was always kind of where I wanted to end up, but then I kind of come from a background of healthcare, a lot of members of my family work in healthcare administration. So I always grew up in hospitals and I really liked being in hospitals. I feel like the energy in hospitals is different from other businesses.

Danny Bush:

Are you saying you lived in a hospital?

Sam Cropper:

No, I was not sickly. I was not sickly person, but I was in hospitals a lot visiting family, like who worked there, or I volunteered. I volunteered from a really young age in hospitals, like transporting patients or working in the gift shop. So I liked being there and I knew that if I could end up there or if I could work in an industry that supported hospitals, I would like that. And so when I was looking, I knew I wanted to do grad school kind of like Danny, but then I couldn’t figure out what. So I kind of was thinking the law route. I was kind of thinking the MHA route. I applied to both and then I realized, stupidly maybe on my part, that I could do both at the same time. So the rest is history, here I am. And I feel really good about working in an industry that I feel matters.

Alexis Clark:

Yeah. I think it’s really cool specifically with healthcare, how you can always take a different route and you find people with similar and very different backgrounds. So thank you both for sharing. Sam, can you give us an overview of exactly what health law is?

Sam Cropper:

Yeah. So if you go to Wikipedia and I love Wikipedia, so if you go to Wikipedia, it would say something like health law is an area of law that deals with federal and state and local rules and regulations, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that sounds great, but maybe is kind of confusing. So what is health law to me is maybe what I want to answer. And I would say health law is doing legal work for healthcare clients. So Joe Clayman is a very brilliant attorney who is the general counsel for the University of Iowa and for the hospitals and clinics, University of Iowa Hospital and Clinics. And if you ask him like what health law is, he will say that health law is an industry. It’s doing legal work for clients, for healthcare clients. And so the thing that makes health law unique is not this specific area of the law that’s like legal things around healthcare or regulation specific to healthcare, even though those exist like Stark law and Tala.

Sam Cropper:

He would say it’s the clients that make it unique. And I think that’s really accurate. You could be doing work for a healthcare clients and it could have nothing to do with healthcare legislation, but it’s still healthcare law because it’s for a healthcare client. And because it’s for a healthcare client, it makes it uniquely difficult. Healthcare is very regulated. It’s either the number one or the second most regulated industry in the United States, maybe second to banking and finance, or I should say finance is maybe the more correct way to say that. Anyway, that’s a joke between Danny and I, but it’s super complicated. So that’s what helpful is doing legal work for healthcare clients.

Alexis Clark:

So then if you looked at specifically public health, how does public health and the legal aspect work together or what’s public health law?

Sam Cropper:

Yeah, that’s an interesting question. I would consider public health law, the intersection of kind of the law and what the government can do. So the law surrounding what the government can do to improve the public’s health. So I think of things like disease and injury prevention, and this is extremely pertinent, especially with COVID-19, so things like mask mandates and vaccine mandates, things that we’ve heard a lot of lately. And these are questions that have been around for a long time, but they become very pertinent. And so that’s what I would consider public health law is kind of the law surrounding the public’s disease and injury prevention and what the government can and cannot do to do that.

Alexis Clark:

Turning the microphone over to you, Danny, what are different focuses one can have if they are going to become a healthcare lawyer?

Danny Bush:

So I’m just going to expound on something Sam said, which is that healthcare is an industry. And so within that, we have both breadth and depth. It can be very profound. And then there are also, as sort of an undertone to all of this, healthcare specifically laws that we have to comply with as we’re going about our normal day. So it’s important to keep in mind a couple things, a hospital or any healthcare entity is number one, a business, number two collection of persons and individuals within that business. Number three, a building, and then many other things that you would all say are true for any business, any entity in the world, but they also have healthcare specific laws and regulations.

Danny Bush:

So starting with the first part, a hospital is a business, it’s a building, it’s got people in it. And that means that you’re going to work on business, corporate matters for the hospital. If the hospital wants to buy another hospital or merge with another health system, those would be the sorts of things that would fall under the industry level of healthcare law. You can also act as an in-house counsel or even a law firm. You can be an outside general counsel, meaning you advise them just their day-to-day operations. Of course, medical malpractice is a big area of health law involving where procedures and other healthcare operations go wrong for patients giving, of course, patients the ability to sue both individual doctors, practitioners, and the hospital itself at times. And another big area within that is fraud and abuse. Understanding that doctors, especially, are held to a high level of honesty and ability, and they can’t do things to basically get the financial uppercut on their patients.

Danny Bush:

Moreover, within that, of course, the hospital is a building. So real estate matters. You’ve got to deal with signing leases, contracts, various things like that. You’ve got people within your hospital, so labor and employment, treating your employees fairly, complying with things like the Fair Labor Standards Act and a whole number of things on the industry level. And so, again, all of that is undergirded or against the backdrop of these healthcare specific laws. So when I go to make a contract with a hospital that I’m purchasing, I don’t just make a contract. I make a contract that complies with things like the anti-kickback statute or Stark Law. I make a contract that complies with the corporate practice of medicine. Or also one very specific area for hospitals, any healthcare entity is certificates of need. You can’t just open another hospital. You can’t just open another physician practice group. There has to be a need for, at least in most states. So, yeah, so there’s that two level sort of healthcare law field where it’s the industry and it’s also against the backdrop of all these healthcare specific laws.

Alexis Clark:

I think that’s very helpful, especially when a layperson hears an attorney that normally, at least what I think of, is I think of divorce. I think many times that’s often when people aren’t involved with attorneys regularly, that’s I think probably what people’s minds go to. But turning the coin over, oftentimes in healthcare and public health, we talk about approaching different scenarios with an interdisciplinary team. Why do each of you feel it’s important that an attorney is represented on those teams?

Danny Bush:

I think if you talk to any in-house lawyer, healthcare or not, they will tell you that they are a cost center. While we’ve got this legal team and all we do is process contracts and we advise the physicians and other business persons within the hospital. And we don’t really generate any sort of value add, and so we’ve got to keep our costs down. But at the same time, I think it’s important to remember that having a person with legal-specific knowledge and a license to practice law on your team can be a value add. It’s important to have an outside perspective that isn’t just born and bred in the hospital management culture that, for example, an MHA would give you, or the physician-led, patient-centric culture that maybe an MD would give you. Having the outside perspective of a legal culture, especially one that is well-versed in healthcare laws and knowledge can actually be a value add to a team. Just having that diversity of thought and background that comes with having people, persons of multiple disciplines on your team can create a better and wider array of good ideas, thoughts, and also the classic legal things of helping you avoid risk, helping you stay out of legal trouble and helping you do things that you want to do in a way that’s legally compliant.

Sam Cropper:

Maybe I’ll add just kind of a story. Well, it’s not a story, but just kind of my personal perspective from my life. So I’m married, I’ve been married for six years and my wife is a social worker. And she’s a social worker, a pediatric social worker for the University of Iowa at their Iowa River Landing Outpatient Clinic location. And she gets legal questions all the time, and it’s interesting because they didn’t talk about the law in her social work program here at the University of Iowa, that’s where she graduated from. But she gets these legal questions all the time, and she contacts the very capable legal team at UIHC and they do their best to answer her questions. There’s only a handful of attorneys though, and so they’re shorthanded, as many health systems are. And so she ends up kind of having to answer these questions herself.

Sam Cropper:

She does it in a way that protects the business, the industry, as well as herself, but she gets all these legal questions is the point. And the legal problems that these people face are part of public health. There are social determinants of health, the housing issues and income issues and food issues, and all of these things have a legal spin on it. Housing is maybe the easiest example. She was telling me about somebody the other day who potentially has this dispute with their landlord and they might get kicked out. This is a huge public health issue. And if they had a lawyer on their team, as part of their health team, not just a MD, as Danny was saying, not just a pharmacist, not just a social worker, but a lawyer who could help them know their rights, landlord-tenant rights, and maybe keep them in their apartment or house or wherever they’re living, that would be huge. And so I think that lawyers are needed. And actually, this is a question for Danny. Danny, you and I were talking about this one time, and you were telling me about some health system that actually has lawyers on teams, and they had some title for them. Do you remember what the title was?

Danny Bush:

Yeah, those are called medical legal partnerships and a number of health systems have them. And it does often put basically one FTE, a full-time equivalent lawyer … Every hospital has lawyers probably, but they usually do the business side of things. They help the hospital operate and run efficiently. Whereas many health systems are actually adding lawyers to patient care teams, which is really valuable because, if you get sick with cancer and your doctor both prescribes you a therapeutic course of action, and also that you need to avoid getting sick with basic things like the cold or the flu, how are you going to do that if you’ve just been evicted from your home? So having a lawyer on your care team means that not only can you get that therapeutic course of action that the doctor has prescribed you, but the lawyer can also advocate for your interests and help you avoid things like eviction or losing insurance, losing food stamps, whatever it may be. Those upstream determinants as we call them that would ultimately harm a patient and prohibit them from recovering as well as they could, or just having, in general, better health outcomes because they have a lawyer on their care team.

Alexis Clark:

I think those are both really good and real life examples of how attorneys should be more involved in the interdisciplinary team and hopefully we are seeing that streamlined into more hospitals. So looking at some unsolved problems in both healthcare and healthcare law, what are some of those unsolved problems and how do you hope to contribute in improving those specific areas?

Sam Cropper:

Maybe I’ll go first this time. So when I was thinking about this question, hint, you know, surprise, surprise, Lexi gives us the questions in advance. I was-

Danny Bush:

She gave you the questions in advance?

Sam Cropper:

Hopefully I wasn’t like spilling the beans there or revealing trades for its Lexi. So when I was thinking about this before mine are much more healthcare specific, and they’re also very political issues. And I think it’s just because these are important topics and lots of people differ on how they should be solved, different opinions I should say. So I think of when I think of problems in healthcare, I think of the three most important factors within healthcare, which are affordability, quality, and access. And so my kind of problems with healthcare had to do with those three. So I think of the first one, which is maybe affordability, which has to do with one huge issue with healthcare is the volatility in healthcare changes after elections.

Sam Cropper:

So an example is when President Obama was president and we had lots of changes to health care that people know about like the Affordable Care Act or Obamacare as it’s maybe more commonly known. And the Obama presidency finished their term and President Trump was elected and we had huge changes and that was big for affordability, huge changes in affordability outcomes. And so that’s hard, that’s just the way our democratic system works, that we get changes like that from administration to administration.

Sam Cropper:

I think of quality as being the huge racial inequality outcomes that we have in healthcare right now. Something that all three of us are familiar with, it gets talked about a lot in our healthcare classes is a very well known statistic that black infants are more likely to die when they’re cared for by white doctors than when they’re cared for by black doctors. And that’s terrible. I think we all hear that and it’s hard to hear that in this day and age, we have that. It makes you sad. It makes you want to do something about it. And to think that we still struggle with that. So that’s a huge quality problem.

Sam Cropper:

And then I think of access, I think of the changes to telehealth because of COVID and they’re really positive changes, a lot more access to telehealth. Now people can have their psychiatric and psychological care via telehealth appointments. Awesome. But then I think a lot of people wonder is that going to continue? And when COVID hopefully ends, cross our fingers, are we going to be able to keep on meeting with our therapist via telehealth and getting that care that we need? So, yeah, I think there’s of questions that are up in the air and I guess your end question was how do we fit into that? I don’t know how we quite fit into that.

Sam Cropper:

I think that lawyers have a duty to their clients to help them navigate the legal framework of our country and that includes being proactive and helping our clients become aware of things they can do differently. That includes diversity, that includes helping them become aware of certain initiatives or certain policies that they can change that will help bring more equitable outcomes with regard to healthcare. That includes navigating the volatile federal framework that we have that changes with every administration. That includes making them aware of potential telehealth changes that are coming or have come and maybe even doing some work on our own to influence future laws to change in favor of telehealth, for example, that’s one example. So I think lawyers have responsibility for most of their clients to help them navigate this framework, but maybe just an overall duty to the law to help improve society so that it’s more equitable for everybody with regard to healthcare outcomes.

Danny Bush:

Yeah, I think that’s a great answer. The beauty of a law degree is that it doesn’t just help you be a lawyer, obviously that’s the purpose, but it also equips you with an understanding of how the law works, how it’s made and how it’s dismantled. And so just having that knowledge, I think is great. The answer I was going to point to is a little bit more specific than Sam’s and speaks to more of the challenges that healthcare institutions face. And I wanted to talk about this because it’s something I have some personal experience with and that’s a certificate of need. So to give a very brief primer that hopefully Lexi and Sam don’t fall asleep for is, the certificate of need law was formed in many states in the fifties or so as a means of helping to protect hospitals as institutions, especially community hospitals that can easily be overshadowed by larger for-profit healthcare entities.

Danny Bush:

But it has become a means of basically stifling any competition whatsoever, and I think having an economics background myself as firm of a believer as I am in the importance of regulation, I also think that competition is important and can also help achieve good patient outcomes. But consider a very public certificate of need lately was the Coralville/North Liberty, a UIHC expansion. They wanted to open a clinic there and perhaps somewhat famously, at least in Iowa, their certificate of need was denied. And that’s because basically every other hospital CEO in the greater Iowa area all showed up to the administrative hearing and said that there is no need. The patients are fine. They can drive another 15 minutes north to Cedar Rapids or west to Grinnell or Des Moines or whatever it is.

Danny Bush:

And it prevented what is arguably and I think, and quite validly, an important clinic that needed to be raised. And I mean, knowing some of the high census numbers, especially during COVID and before. We’ve been packed, we’ve been full. So is there a need or isn’t there a need and having the structure of certificate of need set up now where basically everybody who has an opinion can show up and testify that either a certificate of need should be granted or should not be granted, I think that’s a little bit of a failure and has not proven to fulfill the purpose that it was originally set out to fulfill. Instead of protecting hospitals, it really just allows some of the bigger to kind of come in. I’m not calling any of the other hospitals in the area bullies necessarily, but it allows for that. It opens the door for potential bullies to prevent smaller hospitals or any hospital from expanding and actually fulfilling patient needs that are legitimately present in certain areas.

Sam Cropper:

I think the certificate of need thing is interesting. Something, and Danny has more experience with this than I do, but I’m pretty certain that every state has their own certificate of need process as well. Some are very similar.

Danny Bush:

Just about, yep.

Sam Cropper:

But I think that’s another thing that makes it terribly complicated, especially the way that healthcare’s going is everybody’s expanding and merging together and joining hands. And we have these massive health systems like Intermountain Healthcare out west, or Ascension here in the center of the country, things like that. And they cross state lines and so one process is different from another, and that can get very complicated. So I can see what Danny’s saying that that needs to be changed and make it easier. And it could definitely affect patient outcome by getting care closer to where people need it.

Alexis Clark:

Yeah. I think you both said a few things that I wanted to circle back to. The first one was affordability and that next to the whole political landscape in the United States. Sam, do you think that every four years potentially we are having a new person in office is attributing to what can often be thought of as stifling innovation within healthcare, because we are constantly changing and sometimes going backwards to how things were four years ago, or abolishing specific statutes and things like that in terms of healthcare.

Sam Cropper:

Yeah. I definitely think so. It’s a double-edged sword. It works both ways, because, on one hand, because we have that change, it means that we get breaths of fresh air, but we do run the risk that we will go backwards. And I think kind of that Obamacare ACA example is still poignant here because the ACA had a very public health outlook and trying to change our healthcare system from being a fee for service system. You come in, you get care done, and I pay you a fee to this population health model and caring for people and getting paid because we keep them healthy, not because we treated them when they’re sick and it was cool. It was kind of this new thing in healthcare. And I mean, and it still is, I’m talking like it’s died, but I think with changes in administration, as you’re saying, comes changes in the thought process about how things should work.

Sam Cropper:

And I do think there’s been some receding of that in going back to the way things were, because it’s what we’re familiar with. It’s what’s easy, but it’s proven that population health will help keep people healthier. So I do think it’s hard. I do think it contributes, as you’re saying, to a decreased amount of care and just volatility in general. And that’s hard for the average American to have a certain situation and then two years later be completely confronted with something new just because our president changed or the administration changed or somebody new was elected to office. So it’s a difficult situation we’re dealt with.

Alexis Clark:

And then follow up question to you, Danny. We are obviously seeing mergers and acquisitions becoming more and more prevalent, and I’m trying to figure out how do these large health systems continue to be permitted to expand and expand when we see these smaller systems in a variety of states getting rejected on their certificate of need, et cetera.

Danny Bush:

So you want a lesson on antitrust, I see. All right. All right. Luckily I’ve had the pleasure of giving some presentations on anti-trusts during the MHA program, so thank you MHA, although I’m definitely not an expert, so take my limited opinion here with a grain of salt. But every time there’s a merger in a healthcare setting, there are a number of transactional costs and benefits also that come from it. Cost-wise, you’re getting this perhaps doubling in size system and so there’s certain costs that come with being huge and that can sometimes even affect patient care for example. But there are also benefits too, possibly combining the back end of the system, having a greater organizational mission, those can do things like unify the organization, make them more efficient. Sometimes, especially if the culture’s meld, the organization can work more efficiently.

Danny Bush:

But in terms of anti-trust concerns and how are certain mergers not becoming monopolies, the factors to consider are varied. You have to consider both the size of the market, of course, the number of competitors within the market. The options that an individual patient has within that market. And even if a merger creates a situation where a patient effectively loses options, for example, they can only pick one healthcare system to go to now, and it’s either Clinic A over here or Clinic B over there, but it’s either way it’s ultimately the same business, the same healthcare entity that’s running it. If even though that might be sort of a monopoly on its face, it’s anti-competitive effects may actually, or rather, let me rephrase that. It’s beneficial effects may outweigh its anti-competitive effects. As in, if patients are seeing a quantitative decrease in prices or perhaps a quantitative increase in quality, things like that can outweigh the anti-competitive concerns that organizations like the DOJ, Department of Justice would have is ultimately if it benefits the consumer.

Alexis Clark:

That’s very helpful. Hopefully everyone on listening found that as helpful as I did. But tuning now to the last question I have for each of you. And this one can be a doozy, and there’s many ways you can answer it. You can answer it about your professional life, you can answer it about your personal life, however you choose. But what is one thing you thought you knew, but were later wrong about?

Danny Bush:

I didn’t think that I was going to be able to answer this about my personal life. I’ve got a whole hours or maybe days worth of parenting tips I can now provide you. But no, I’ll say things that pertain to my professional life to keep it classy. Maybe lock the bedroom door before. So the kids don’t walk in while I’m trying to film a podcast. All right, this is what I think, this is what I’ll say. Story time. The other day, I was giving a presentation and my part of the presentation, by my own doing, ended up being basically the legal part of the presentation. And it really wasn’t necessary, but I just felt like flexing my legal muscles and doing some analysis and having some fun with it.

Danny Bush:

I probably should have been a little more focused on the actual task at hand, but nevertheless, I decided to give my part of the presentation as the legal considerations and risks. Basically the presentation was to a number of executives in a hospital close to us. And after the presentation, they gave me some really honest feedback, which I appreciate still to this day, which is basically I scared them. I scared them all with my legal knowledge. And this is by no means, I’m not trying to self-praise here. I’m trying to say that I really need to remember what it was like to not know really much about how things like the anti-kickback statute or the Stark law work. And remember that being sued and ultimately being punished by the government is a super scary thing and nobody wants to even have any semblance of that might happen to you told to them by a lawyer.

Danny Bush:

So I guess the moral of the story is, I need to remember that lawyers sometimes get a bad rap and sometimes it’s for good reason. We cost people a lot of money and we scare people with our ability to bring them to courts. And so I need to remember to tone it back and be an approachable person that also remembers the executive side of things, the normal human side of things, and forget that I’m not just a ivory tower of legal knowledge.

Sam Cropper:

Lawyers get paid to fix things and make sure things don’t go wrong or fix things that have gone wrong. And so I think that’s why lawyers get a bad rap because we’re always there when there’s a problem. But it doesn’t have a super happy outcome when a doctor saves their own life. It’s like, oh, we didn’t lose 50 million. Thanks. I mean, I guess that’s a big deal, but it’s associated with a negative thing. Like, oh, somebody got sued because they messed up or I don’t know. So I think that was really interesting that Danny brought that up. I think, as with any profession, we can get, as you become more learned, for lack of a better term, you kind of forget what it was like to not be there and you think that everybody’s on the same page and they’re not. And Lexi, I’m sure you’ve had those moments where maybe, I don’t know, you’re talking about Medicare with your family around the Thanksgiving dinner table and you’re loving to talk about Medicare and everybody’s like, what are you talking about? I have no idea. And we kind of forget that.

Sam Cropper:

Is that the same thing as Obamacare?

Danny Bush:

Yeah, exactly. And you’re thinking, oh, this is my profession. And they’re thinking healthcare scares me because it’s so complicated and insurance scares me because I hate dealing with it. So I guess mine is healthcare is complicated. I kind of already said it. And that’s what I realized when I was growing up, I don’t know, I was the typical patient just like everybody else in the emergency room. And I was waiting for five hours to get care or maybe hopefully not five hours, but waiting for a long time and thinking, ah, this stupid healthcare system or hospital, why are they making me wait for so long? This is so frustrating. And they’re just a bunch of jerks and just this business that’s making money off of sick people.

Danny Bush:

And I think as I’ve grown up and certainly been in the MHA program, I’ve realized is that while healthcare is a business, they do care and they’re trying to make it better. And so if you’re waiting in the emergency room for five hours, it’s not because the hospital’s a jerk and wants you to sit there for five hours. It’s because it’s a tricky, complicated system and you, lots of smart people are trying to make it better and it’s hard to make better. And that’s something that I’ve kind of realized is people are trying to make things better, and when you’re a patient and kind of siloed in that vein of thought, you don’t realize that the problems are being addressed. You just think that they’re not trying to fix. They’re sitting in their ivory tower, counting their money that they make off of us. And that’s really not the case. It’s that they’re trying to make it better. And it’s just complicated. Healthcare in the United States is extremely complicated.

Alexis Clark:

Yeah. You both ended with really strong points. I think it was really important to have a conversation regarding healthcare and the legal side of things, because oftentimes I feel like that just doesn’t get addressed because people, like Danny said, don’t want to talk about the legal implications or the complications with going down compliance and different areas like that. So thank you both for joining me today, it’s been very helpful and informative.

Sam Cropper:

It’s been great, Lexi. Thanks for having us.

Danny Bush:

Yeah. Thank you.

Alexis Clark:

That’s it for episode this week. Big thanks to Danny and Sam for coming on with us today. This episode was hosted, written, edited, and produced by Alexis Clark. You can learn more about the University of Iowa College of Public Health on Facebook. Our podcast is available on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and SoundCloud. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to help support the podcast, please share it with your colleagues. Our team can be reached at cph-gradambassador@uiowa.edu. This episode was brought to you by the University of Iowa College Health. Stay happy, stay healthy and keep learning.